<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Aug 8, 2006, at 1:42 AM, Immanuel Litzroth wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"Reilly Hayes" <<A href="mailto:rfh@reillyhayes.com">rfh@reillyhayes.com</A>> writes:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't understand your argument. How exactly does the GPL get in the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">way of selling software as an instantiation of business expertise?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Are you saying that you have the business expertise but customers</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">still prefer not to buy your software? Doesn't that just mean that</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">your expertise isn't worth much (economic evaluation :-). Or that your</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">idea that they were buying expertise was not correct, they were just</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">buying the software after all, and now they have an alternative?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I failed to communicate my case clearly. The software *is* what is being sold. The *reason* it is valuable is the business expertise required to build it. There are markets with very small populations of people who both understand the business thoroughly and can implement solutions. It makes software valuable and makes licensing the most effective way to monetize that value.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Yes I know the business model. Sell them some overpriced software</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">charge them through the nose for support, features, training,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">installation, updates ....</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Your resentment against the GPL stems from the fact that it makes</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">squeezing the last buck out of your clients somewhat harder (in some</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">markets). It probably annoys you that you are not dealing with a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">competitor who is making shitloads of money, making some price fixing</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or secret agreements not feasable. Your problem is that just as your</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">business practice is not illegal, neither is the GPL.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>This paragraph is way out of line. You have taken a discussion of the merits of using GPL software and turned it into a personal attack. Attack the argument, not the arguer. It would be both polite and reasonable to tone down the hostility if you actually want a discussion.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Certainly, some firms use restrictive software licensing to maximize short term revenue from their clients in the way you describe. But I was referring to the marketing value of having the IP. It's easier to sell services when you have some unique core IP, even to clients that aren't going to buy your product. It gives your credibility a boost.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I don't have a problem with the GPL. In my professional life, I am careful to avoid GPL software in those cases where the GPL would interfere with the firm's commercial interests. I certainly don't resent the GPL or those who choose to release software under the GPL. In fact, I can imagine wanting to release some kinds of software under the GPL.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The point I was making was that the GPL *does* get in the way of *some* optimal mechanisms of making money. Which is *fine*. That is one of the *intents* of the GPL. The argument that I am trying to counter is the one that says open source is *always* better for everybody. Sometimes, the best thing for the owner of the intellectual property is to keep it closed. There *are* markets where monetization of IP is a zero sum game, or worse (if the IP is public, nobody makes any money).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm not making (or getting involved in) the moral argument about free or open</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">software. I will point out that the current good health of Haskell owes a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">great deal to Microsoft through the computer scientists they employ. I'm sure</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Haskell has benefitted from the largesse of other companies as well.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That is definitely wrong. Haskell would be in even greater shape if</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">some people who shall remain unnamed had not gone over to Microsoft. I</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">foresee an interesting discussion here.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't see how you can say Haskell would be better OR worse off if people hadn't gone to work for Microsoft. It's an entirely hypothetical case and it's just not knowable. My point is much simpler. Haskell & GHC do benefit from the efforts of people being paid by Microsoft. Microsoft is planning to hire a full-time contractor to work on GHC.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The snarky comment about "people who shall remain unnamed" is rude.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-R Hayes</DIV></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>