From dekudekuplex at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 07:37:00 2008 From: dekudekuplex at yahoo.com (Benjamin L. Russell) Date: Tue Jul 1 07:28:13 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list Message-ID: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback. The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as follows: 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to in research. 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements and for non-beginner discussions b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome in a more education-focused context. It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background would be able to ask elementary questions to educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow wrote: > From: Simon Marlow > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > Cc: "John Peterson" > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM > Hi Benjamin, > > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has > a narrow > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this case > you're > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it > needs discussion > amongst the community before we create the list, so that we > can keep a > consistent strategy. > > That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal. > But it doesn't > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why > haskell-cafe > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that isn't > clear is whether the > list you're proposing is for people interested in > *teaching* Haskell (in > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people > *learning* Haskell (in > which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe > shoudn't be > serving that need). That's something you need to > clarify when proposing > this list to the community. > > So I suggest you send this proposal out to > haskell@haskell.org in the > first instance, and see what response you get. Discussion > should move > to haskell-cafe quickly. > > Cheers, > Simon > > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. > > > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to > non-computer science major students. > > > > This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe > for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to > announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters. > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors > interested in learning Haskell. > > > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: > > > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing List: > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in > Education > > > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do to > start this mailing list? Should I host it on haskell.org, > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in the > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > > > > Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > Benjamin L. Russell > > > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson > wrote: > > > >> From: John Peterson > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related > mailing list > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM > >> Hi Benjamin, > >> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing > list. Simon > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you > drop him > >> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org. > Once the > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it > to the > >> appropriate pages. > >> > >> We've had a bunch of these special interest > lists and > >> most of them go dead after a few months but you > never know > >> ... > >> > >> > >> John > > > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell > wrote: > > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell > > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing > list > >> To: "John Peterson" > > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM > >> Greetings, > >> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > interested in > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I > plan to > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to > non-research > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible > to > >> non-computer science major students. (This > message is > >> being addressed to you because I had already sent > the > >> portion below twice to other administrators at > Haskell.org, > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then to > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not received a > response > >> on either occasion.) > >> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other > mailing > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and > Haskell-Cafe > >> for the past six months or so, but the former is > devoted to > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to research > matters. > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly > academic > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this > creates an > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer > science majors > >> interested in learning Haskell. > >> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to > start > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on > haskell.org, or > >> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org > mailing > >> list service? Also, how should I have it listed > in the > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for > the > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > >> > >> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. > >> > >> Sincerely yours, > >> > >> Benjamin L. Russell From matthew at wellquite.org Tue Jul 1 08:15:32 2008 From: matthew at wellquite.org (Matthew Sackman) Date: Tue Jul 1 08:06:51 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Anglo Haskell 2008 Message-ID: <20080701121531.GB1808@arkansas.doc.ic.ac.uk> Anglo Haskell is a gathering of all people Haskell-related from beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas. Anglo Haskell has happened for the last two years and we see no reason why it should not happen again this year. For the last two years they've tended to have talks on Fridays and then Other Things on the Saturday (including Punting and Group Hacking, some or more of which may have happened in Pubs). We're proposing the same general format this year. In contrast to the last two years which have been held at MSR Cambridge (UK), we're this year proposing to hold the event at Imperial College, London. London is probably easier to get to and from (though more tedious to get across) than Cambridge and we hope this will attract people who previously have not been able to get out to Cambridge. The proposed dates are Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th of August. More details are available on the wikipage: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 Please feel free to add to this page. If you're at all interested in coming along then please add your name to the wikipage. If you're interested in giving a talk - on literally anything Haskell related: this is not a solely theory day or solely a practical day; anything goes which is Haskell related - then similarly add yourself to the list of speakers. Schedule and other details will be confirmed soon. Lodging, travel and all other related matters will be discussed on the irc channel (and will eventually migrate to the wikipage) #anglohaskell. If you're free that weekend then please come along! Also, if you'd really like to come but can't make those dates and there are many of you then please shout loudly and things could potentially be moved, though with the lack of time left before the event, we'd prefer to avoid this. Matthew From dekudekuplex at yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 03:39:39 2008 From: dekudekuplex at yahoo.com (Benjamin L. Russell) Date: Wed Jul 2 03:30:46 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > From: Benjamin L. Russell > Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list > To: "The Haskell Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM > I am interested in starting a new mailing list on > Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and > elementary-level learners of Haskell, called > "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing > List." This new mailing list would be guided by the > principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but > also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts > education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea > of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org > mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this > idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here > to ask for feedback. > > The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would > be as follows: > > 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion > forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the > uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in > introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to > in research. > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion > forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students > of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for > learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal > arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: > > a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for > announcements and for non-beginner discussions > > b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for > everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious > academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of > the language Haskell. > > Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for > teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts > education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly > responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have > witnessed several instances in which new users who were not > familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have > been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not > assume enough mathematical background, or for posting > messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and > that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the > mailing list. > > (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a > private e-mail message from another poster asking the > former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing > List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow > related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points > randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this > question required the knowledge that screen resolution > could be considered independently from the precision of the > algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to > mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar > enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and > received the above-mentioned response.) > > This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue > of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, > and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from > students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics > background. The primary audience of this new mailing list > would be educators and students in a liberal arts > curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for > studying functional programming. Currently, the language > Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is > not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has > recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming > language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell > may either not have a computer science background, or may > not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts > from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, > who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find > valuable information to aid their research, but may be > welcome > in a more education-focused context. > > It would seem that creating a new mailing list, > Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching > programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding > questions from students in that context, would help > increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread > knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in > industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could > discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and > students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background > would be able to ask elementary questions to educators > willing to discuss such questions, without being expected > to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science > background. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow > wrote: > > > From: Simon Marlow > > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing > list > > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > > Cc: "John Peterson" > > > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list > has > > a narrow > > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this > case > > you're > > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it > > needs discussion > > amongst the community before we create the list, so > that we > > can keep a > > consistent strategy. > > > > That's not to say that I disagree with your > proposal. > > But it doesn't > > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and > why > > haskell-cafe > > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that > isn't > > clear is whether the > > list you're proposing is for people interested in > > *teaching* Haskell (in > > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or > people > > *learning* Haskell (in > > which case I'd consider carefully whether > haskell-cafe > > shoudn't be > > serving that need). That's something you need to > > clarify when proposing > > this list to the community. > > > > So I suggest you send this proposal out to > > haskell@haskell.org in the > > first instance, and see what response you get. > Discussion > > should move > > to haskell-cafe quickly. > > > > Cheers, > > Simon > > > > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail > > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new > > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to > > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the > > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. > > > > > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > interested in > > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan > to call > > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research > > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the > > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to > > non-computer science major students. > > > > > > This topic is not covered by any of the other > mailing > > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and > Haskell-Cafe > > for the past six months or so, but the former is > devoted to > > announcements, and the latter de facto to research > matters. > > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly > academic > > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an > > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science > majors > > interested in learning Haskell. > > > > > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request > you to > > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you > please > > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: > > > > > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu > > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org > > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing > List: > > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in > > Education > > > > > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do > to > > start this mailing list? Should I host it on > haskell.org, > > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org > mailing > > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in > the > > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the > > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? > > > > > > Thank you very much for your time and > cooperation. > > > > > > Sincerely yours, > > > > > > Benjamin L. Russell > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: John Peterson > > > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new > Haskell-related > > mailing list > > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" > > > > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM > > >> Hi Benjamin, > > >> > > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing > > list. Simon > > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if > you > > drop him > > >> and email he'll do the setup for > Haskell.org. > > Once the > > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and > add it > > to the > > >> appropriate pages. > > >> > > >> We've had a bunch of these special > interest > > lists and > > >> most of them go dead after a few months but > you > > never know > > >> ... > > >> > > >> > > >> John > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell > > > > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related > mailing > > list > > >> To: "John Peterson" > > > > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM > > >> Greetings, > > >> > > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am > > interested in > > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which > I > > plan to > > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to > > non-research > > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by > the > > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more > accessible > > to > > >> non-computer science major students. (This > > message is > > >> being addressed to you because I had already > sent > > the > > >> portion below twice to other administrators > at > > Haskell.org, > > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then > to > > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not > received a > > response > > >> on either occasion.) > > >> > > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other > > mailing > > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell > and > > Haskell-Cafe > > >> for the past six months or so, but the former > is > > devoted to > > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to > research > > matters. > > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is > overly > > academic > > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this > > creates an > > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer > > science majors > > >> interested in learning Haskell. > > >> > > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to > do to > > start > > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on > > haskell.org, or > > >> just start it by myself using a > non-Haskell.org > > mailing > > >> list service? Also, how should I have it > listed > > in the > > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" > > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) > page for > > the > > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell > community? > > >> > > >> Thank you very much for your time and > cooperation. > > >> > > >> Sincerely yours, > > >> > > >> Benjamin L. Russell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From mvanier at cs.caltech.edu Wed Jul 2 03:58:08 2008 From: mvanier at cs.caltech.edu (Michael Vanier) Date: Wed Jul 2 03:49:18 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like to be on it. Mike Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >>> From: Simon Marlow >>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >>> Cc: "John Peterson" >> >>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>> Hi Benjamin, >>> >>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >> has >>> a narrow >>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >> case >>> you're >>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>> needs discussion >>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >> that we >>> can keep a >>> consistent strategy. >>> >>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >> proposal. >>> But it doesn't >>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >> why >>> haskell-cafe >>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >> isn't >>> clear is whether the >>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >> people >>> *learning* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >> haskell-cafe >>> shoudn't be >>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>> clarify when proposing >>> this list to the community. >>> >>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>> first instance, and see what response you get. >> Discussion >>> should move >>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Simon >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >> to call >>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>> non-computer science major students. >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >> majors >>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >> you to >>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >> please >>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >> List: >>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>> Education >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >> to >>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, >>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >> the >>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>> wrote: >>>>> From: John Peterson >> >>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >> Haskell-related >>> mailing list >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>> list. Simon >>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >> you >>> drop him >>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >> Haskell.org. >>> Once the >>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >> add it >>> to the >>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>> >>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >> interest >>> lists and >>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >> you >>> never know >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John >>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>> wrote: >>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing >>> list >>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>> >>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>> interested in >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >> I >>> plan to >>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>> non-research >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >> the >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >> accessible >>> to >>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>> message is >>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >> sent >>> the >>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >> at >>> Haskell.org, >>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >> to >>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >> received a >>> response >>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>> >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>> mailing >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >> and >>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >> is >>> devoted to >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >> research >>> matters. >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >> overly >>> academic >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>> creates an >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>> science majors >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >> do to >>> start >>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> haskell.org, or >>>>> just start it by myself using a >> non-Haskell.org >>> mailing >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >> listed >>> in the >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >> page for >>> the >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >> community? >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com Wed Jul 2 05:34:06 2008 From: DekuDekuplex at Yahoo.com (Benjamin L.Russell) Date: Wed Jul 2 05:31:20 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier wrote: >FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a >Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of >trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like >to be on it. Thank you for your response. It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular, because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I also participate. I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent programs in both Haskell and Scheme. The two main functional programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and Haskell as well. Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could not also fulfill this role. I saw no reason that it couldn't. However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe. Most of the people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level topics. It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers, while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style. This distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical topics. Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level students of Haskell. This is what led to my proposal. As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on each other. For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely resembles Haskell. Originally, it did not have type signatures, but these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming language. On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With Class" (http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf), the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the following: > "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should > not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman > and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they > weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or > call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value > design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a > call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to > simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate > evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that > reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic > programming-language landscape might be today had they made the > opposite decision." The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell. In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation" (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia. All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme, based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus, in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too. But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind of discussion. -- Benjamin L. Russell >Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. >> >> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. >> >> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. >> >> Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> >>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >>> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >>> to ask for feedback. >>> >>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >>> be as follows: >>> >>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >>> in research. >>> >>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >>> arts education, as opposed to an >>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >>> >>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >>> >>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >>> >>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >>> the language Haskell. >>> >>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >>> mailing list. >>> >>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >>> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >>> could be considered independently from the precision of the >>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >>> received the above-mentioned response.) >>> >>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >>> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >>> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >>> may either not have a computer science background, or may >>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >>> welcome >>> in a more education-focused context. >>> >>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >>> questions from students in that context, would help >>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >>> background. >>> >>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >>> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Simon Marlow >>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>> list >>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >>>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>> >>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>> >>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>> has >>>> a narrow >>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>> case >>>> you're >>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>>> needs discussion >>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>> that we >>>> can keep a >>>> consistent strategy. >>>> >>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>> proposal. >>>> But it doesn't >>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>> why >>>> haskell-cafe >>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>> isn't >>>> clear is whether the >>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>> people >>>> *learning* Haskell (in >>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>> haskell-cafe >>>> shoudn't be >>>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>>> clarify when proposing >>>> this list to the community. >>>> >>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>> Discussion >>>> should move >>>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Simon >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>> interested in >>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>> to call >>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>>> non-computer science major students. >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>> mailing >>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>> Haskell-Cafe >>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>> devoted to >>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>> matters. >>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>> academic >>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>> majors >>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>> you to >>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>> please >>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>> List: >>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>>> Education >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>> to >>>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> haskell.org, >>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>> mailing >>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>> the >>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>> cooperation. >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>> wrote: >>>>>> From: John Peterson >>> >>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>> Haskell-related >>>> mailing list >>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>> >>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>> >>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>> list. Simon >>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>> you >>>> drop him >>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>> Haskell.org. >>>> Once the >>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>> add it >>>> to the >>>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>>> >>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>> interest >>>> lists and >>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>> you >>>> never know >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> John >>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>> wrote: >>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>> mailing >>>> list >>>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>> >>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>> >>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> interested in >>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>> I >>>> plan to >>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>> non-research >>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>> the >>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>> accessible >>>> to >>>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>> message is >>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>> sent >>>> the >>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>> at >>>> Haskell.org, >>>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>> to >>>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>> received a >>>> response >>>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>>> >>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> mailing >>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>> and >>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>> is >>>> devoted to >>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>> research >>>> matters. >>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>> overly >>>> academic >>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>> creates an >>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>> science majors >>>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>> do to >>>> start >>>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>> haskell.org, or >>>>>> just start it by myself using a >>> non-Haskell.org >>>> mailing >>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>> listed >>>> in the >>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>> page for >>>> the >>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>> community? >>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>> cooperation. >>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>> >>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Haskell mailing list >>> Haskell@haskell.org >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From mvanier at cs.caltech.edu Wed Jul 2 05:49:57 2008 From: mvanier at cs.caltech.edu (Michael Vanier) Date: Wed Jul 2 05:41:08 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486B3510.7020706@cs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <486B4F45.6080500@cs.caltech.edu> Just one nit to pick: AFAIK Haskell's type system is _way_ beyond simply typed lambda calculus, and is closer to system F (experts can weigh in here). Not that this invalidates any of your other points. Also, I surmise that a big reason Scheme went the strict route is that it made it much easier to handle side-effecting computations. Mike Benjamin L.Russell wrote: > On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier > wrote: > >> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a >> Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of >> trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like >> to be on it. > > Thank you for your response. > > It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular, > because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the > education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I > also participate. I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme > frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent > programs in both Haskell and Scheme. The two main functional > programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and > Haskell as well. > > Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part > of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could > not also fulfill this role. I saw no reason that it couldn't. > > However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind > of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite > different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe. Most of the > people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend > to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions > on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level > topics. It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level > discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that > beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers, > while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out > beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical > sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style. This > distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical > topics. > > Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal > arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level > students of Haskell. This is what led to my proposal. > > As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on > each other. For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed > Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely > resembles Haskell. Originally, it did not have type signatures, but > these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from > either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming > language. > > On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With > Class" > (http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf), > the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the > following: > >> "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should >> not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman >> and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they >> weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or >> call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value >> design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a >> call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to >> simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate >> evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that >> reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic >> programming-language landscape might be today had they made the >> opposite decision." > > The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in > early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming > is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell. > > In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation" > (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites > Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia. > > All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of > fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme, > based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus, > in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too. > > But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind > of discussion. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > >> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. >>> >>> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. >>> >>> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. >>> >>> Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. >>> >>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> >>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >>>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >>>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >>>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >>>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >>>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >>>> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >>>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >>>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >>>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >>>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >>>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >>>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >>>> to ask for feedback. >>>> >>>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >>>> be as follows: >>>> >>>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >>>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >>>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >>>> in research. >>>> >>>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >>>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >>>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >>>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >>>> arts education, as opposed to an >>>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >>>> >>>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >>>> >>>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >>>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >>>> >>>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >>>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >>>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >>>> the language Haskell. >>>> >>>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >>>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >>>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >>>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >>>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >>>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >>>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >>>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >>>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >>>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >>>> mailing list. >>>> >>>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >>>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >>>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >>>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >>>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >>>> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >>>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >>>> could be considered independently from the precision of the >>>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >>>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >>>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >>>> received the above-mentioned response.) >>>> >>>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >>>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >>>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >>>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >>>> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >>>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >>>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >>>> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >>>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >>>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >>>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >>>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >>>> may either not have a computer science background, or may >>>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >>>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >>>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >>>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >>>> welcome >>>> in a more education-focused context. >>>> >>>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >>>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >>>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >>>> questions from students in that context, would help >>>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >>>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >>>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >>>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >>>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >>>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >>>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >>>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >>>> background. >>>> >>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Simon Marlow >>>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>>> list >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>> >>>>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>>> >>>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>>> has >>>>> a narrow >>>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>>> case >>>>> you're >>>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>>>> needs discussion >>>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>>> that we >>>>> can keep a >>>>> consistent strategy. >>>>> >>>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>>> proposal. >>>>> But it doesn't >>>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>>> why >>>>> haskell-cafe >>>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>>> isn't >>>>> clear is whether the >>>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>>>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>>> people >>>>> *learning* Haskell (in >>>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>>> haskell-cafe >>>>> shoudn't be >>>>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>>>> clarify when proposing >>>>> this list to the community. >>>>> >>>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>>>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>>>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>>> Discussion >>>>> should move >>>>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Simon >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>> >>>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> interested in >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>>> to call >>>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>>>> non-computer science major students. >>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> mailing >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>>> devoted to >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>>> matters. >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>>> academic >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>>> majors >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>>> you to >>>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>>> please >>>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>>> List: >>>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>>>> Education >>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>>> to >>>>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>> haskell.org, >>>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>>> mailing >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>>> the >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> cooperation. >>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>> >>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> From: John Peterson >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>>> Haskell-related >>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>>> list. Simon >>>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>>> you >>>>> drop him >>>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>>> Haskell.org. >>>>> Once the >>>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>>> add it >>>>> to the >>>>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>>> interest >>>>> lists and >>>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>>> you >>>>> never know >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John >>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>>> mailing >>>>> list >>>>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>>>> Greetings, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>>> interested in >>>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>>> I >>>>> plan to >>>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>>> non-research >>>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>>> the >>>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>>> accessible >>>>> to >>>>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>>> message is >>>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>>> sent >>>>> the >>>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>>> at >>>>> Haskell.org, >>>>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>>> to >>>>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>>> received a >>>>> response >>>>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>>> mailing >>>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>>> and >>>>> Haskell-Cafe >>>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>>> is >>>>> devoted to >>>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>>> research >>>>> matters. >>>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>>> overly >>>>> academic >>>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>>> creates an >>>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>>> science majors >>>>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>>> do to >>>>> start >>>>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>>> haskell.org, or >>>>>>> just start it by myself using a >>>> non-Haskell.org >>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>>> listed >>>>> in the >>>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>>> page for >>>>> the >>>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>>> community? >>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> cooperation. >>>>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Haskell mailing list >>>> Haskell@haskell.org >>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Haskell mailing list >>> Haskell@haskell.org >>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From jur at cs.uu.nl Wed Jul 2 06:59:52 2008 From: jur at cs.uu.nl (jur) Date: Wed Jul 2 06:51:03 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed > mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of > Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing > List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that > Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching > programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with > Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon > Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested > that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting > it here to ask for feedback. > > The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as > follows: > > 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in > education, such as in high school and in introductory computer > science college courses, as opposed to in research. > > 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to > serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish > to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part > of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an > engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. > > Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: > > a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements > and for non-beginner discussions > > b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, > but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science > research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. > > Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching > functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and > while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing > beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new > users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell > Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not > assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that > were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not > fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. > > (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail > message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The > Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution > was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked > points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this > question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be > considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, > but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and > researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to > grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) > > This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of > teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of > answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not > have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience > of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a > liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for > studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is > often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true > functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been > gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as > well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer > science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical > background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious > researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find > valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome > in a more education-focused context. > > It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, > focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts > context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would > help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge > about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a > liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non- > research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts- > related background would be able to ask elementary questions to > educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected > to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. > Hi all, I am all for a separate channel or resource for beginners in Haskell. I can imagine that even the run-of-the-mill discussions in the existing venues will scare them off. It might also be a good place for educators and students to talk about their experiences in teaching and being taught Haskell. E.g., what kind of assignments work, which don't. Also it will give me a venue to bring Helium to the attention of these beginners and their educators. I am currently bringing the Helium compiler up to speed (but this is not a formal announcement). However, if you simply cannot wait, set your browser to http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Helium . cheers, Jur > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow wrote: > >> From: Simon Marlow >> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> Cc: "John Peterson" >> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >> Hi Benjamin, >> >> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has >> a narrow >> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this case >> you're >> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >> needs discussion >> amongst the community before we create the list, so that we >> can keep a >> consistent strategy. >> >> That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal. >> But it doesn't >> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why >> haskell-cafe >> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that isn't >> clear is whether the >> list you're proposing is for people interested in >> *teaching* Haskell (in >> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people >> *learning* Haskell (in >> which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe >> shoudn't be >> serving that need). That's something you need to >> clarify when proposing >> this list to the community. >> >> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >> haskell@haskell.org in the >> first instance, and see what response you get. Discussion >> should move >> to haskell-cafe quickly. >> >> Cheers, >> Simon >> >> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> Greetings, >>> >>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>> >>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call >> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >> non-computer science major students. >>> >>> This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe >> for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to >> announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters. >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors >> interested in learning Haskell. >>> >>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to >> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please >> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>> >>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing List: >> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >> Education >>> >>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to >> start this mailing list? Should I host it on haskell.org, >> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing >> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in the >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>> >>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. >>> >>> Sincerely yours, >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell >>> >>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: John Peterson >>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing list >>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>> >>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >> list. Simon >>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you >> drop him >>>> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org. >> Once the >>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it >> to the >>>> appropriate pages. >>>> >>>> We've had a bunch of these special interest >> lists and >>>> most of them go dead after a few months but you >> never know >>>> ... >>>> >>>> >>>> John >>> >>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> >>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >>>> To: "John Peterson" >> >>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I >> plan to >>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >> non-research >>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible >> to >>>> non-computer science major students. (This >> message is >>>> being addressed to you because I had already sent >> the >>>> portion below twice to other administrators at >> Haskell.org, >>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then to >>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not received a >> response >>>> on either occasion.) >>>> >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >> creates an >>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >> science majors >>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>> >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to >> start >>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, or >>>> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >>>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed >> in the >>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for >> the >>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation. >>>> >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell From wagner.andrew at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 09:14:18 2008 From: wagner.andrew at gmail.com (Andrew Wagner) Date: Wed Jul 2 09:05:26 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <788909.96155.qm@web30206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would certainly join such a list. My only concer would be that moderating such a list could be tricky. How do you judge when a discussion has become "too technical"? And what do you do about it? Force the members to take it to -cafe? Anyway, I like the idea of having a more beginner-friendly list, and have suggested something similar for the IRC channel multiple times. On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >> > From: Simon Marlow >> > Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >> list >> > To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> >> > Cc: "John Peterson" >> >> > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >> > Hi Benjamin, >> > >> > Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >> has >> > a narrow >> > focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >> case >> > you're >> > proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >> > needs discussion >> > amongst the community before we create the list, so >> that we >> > can keep a >> > consistent strategy. >> > >> > That's not to say that I disagree with your >> proposal. >> > But it doesn't >> > seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >> why >> > haskell-cafe >> > shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >> isn't >> > clear is whether the >> > list you're proposing is for people interested in >> > *teaching* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >> people >> > *learning* Haskell (in >> > which case I'd consider carefully whether >> haskell-cafe >> > shoudn't be >> > serving that need). That's something you need to >> > clarify when proposing >> > this list to the community. >> > >> > So I suggest you send this proposal out to >> > haskell@haskell.org in the >> > first instance, and see what response you get. >> Discussion >> > should move >> > to haskell-cafe quickly. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Simon >> > >> > Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >> > > Greetings, >> > > >> > > John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >> > message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >> > Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >> > moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >> > administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >> > > >> > > My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> interested in >> > starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >> to call >> > Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >> > beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >> > philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >> > non-computer science major students. >> > > >> > > This topic is not covered by any of the other >> mailing >> > lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >> Haskell-Cafe >> > for the past six months or so, but the former is >> devoted to >> > announcements, and the latter de facto to research >> matters. >> > Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >> academic >> > and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >> > unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >> majors >> > interested in learning Haskell. >> > > >> > > Since John Peterson recommended that I request >> you to >> > set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >> please >> > set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >> > > >> > > Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >> > > E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >> > > Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >> List: >> > Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >> > Education >> > > >> > > Could you please advise me on what I need to do >> to >> > start this mailing list? Should I host it on >> haskell.org, >> > or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >> mailing >> > list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >> the >> > "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >> > benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >> > > >> > > Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > > >> > > Sincerely yours, >> > > >> > > Benjamin L. Russell >> > > >> > > --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: John Peterson >> >> > >> Subject: RE: on starting a new >> Haskell-related >> > mailing list >> > >> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >> > >> > >> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >> > >> Hi Benjamin, >> > >> >> > >> There's no problem starting a new mailing >> > list. Simon >> > >> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >> you >> > drop him >> > >> and email he'll do the setup for >> Haskell.org. >> > Once the >> > >> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >> add it >> > to the >> > >> appropriate pages. >> > >> >> > >> We've had a bunch of these special >> interest >> > lists and >> > >> most of them go dead after a few months but >> you >> > never know >> > >> ... >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> John >> > > >> > > --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> > >> > >> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >> mailing >> > list >> > >> To: "John Peterson" >> > >> > >> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >> > >> Greetings, >> > >> >> > >> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >> > interested in >> > >> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >> I >> > plan to >> > >> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >> > non-research >> > >> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >> the >> > >> philosophy that Haskell should be more >> accessible >> > to >> > >> non-computer science major students. (This >> > message is >> > >> being addressed to you because I had already >> sent >> > the >> > >> portion below twice to other administrators >> at >> > Haskell.org, >> > >> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >> to >> > >> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >> received a >> > response >> > >> on either occasion.) >> > >> >> > >> This topic is not covered by any of the other >> > mailing >> > >> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >> and >> > Haskell-Cafe >> > >> for the past six months or so, but the former >> is >> > devoted to >> > >> announcements, and the latter de facto to >> research >> > matters. >> > >> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >> overly >> > academic >> > >> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >> > creates an >> > >> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >> > science majors >> > >> interested in learning Haskell. >> > >> >> > >> Could you please advise me on what I need to >> do to >> > start >> > >> this mailing list? Should I host it on >> > haskell.org, or >> > >> just start it by myself using a >> non-Haskell.org >> > mailing >> > >> list service? Also, how should I have it >> listed >> > in the >> > >> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >> > >> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >> page for >> > the >> > >> benefit of other members of the Haskell >> community? >> > >> >> > >> Thank you very much for your time and >> cooperation. >> > >> >> > >> Sincerely yours, >> > >> >> > >> Benjamin L. Russell >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > From paul.hudak at yale.edu Wed Jul 2 09:57:40 2008 From: paul.hudak at yale.edu (Paul Hudak) Date: Wed Jul 2 09:48:50 2008 Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list In-Reply-To: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <576650.92747.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486B8954.1060701@yale.edu> Hi Benjamin. I think this is a great idea, for all the reasons you mention. Starting this fall I will be teaching a two-term computer music course based on Haskore and HasSound (Haskell libraries for computer music), and I would love to have an on-line forum that I could recommend to my students, some of whom will not be hard-core computer science majors. Thanks for initiating this. -Paul Hudak Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. > > In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. > > In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. > > Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. > > -- Benjamin L. Russell > > --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell wrote: > > >> From: Benjamin L. Russell >> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list >> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" >> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM >> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on >> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and >> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called >> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing >> List." This new mailing list would be guided by the >> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but >> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea >> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org >> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this >> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here >> to ask for feedback. >> >> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would >> be as follows: >> >> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the >> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in >> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to >> in research. >> >> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion >> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students >> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for >> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal >> arts education, as opposed to an >> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. >> >> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: >> >> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for >> announcements and for non-beginner discussions >> >> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for >> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious >> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of >> the language Haskell. >> >> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for >> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts >> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly >> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have >> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not >> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have >> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not >> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting >> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and >> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the >> mailing list. >> >> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a >> private e-mail message from another poster asking the >> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing >> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow >> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points >> randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this >> question required the knowledge that screen resolution >> could be considered independently from the precision of the >> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to >> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar >> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and >> received the above-mentioned response.) >> >> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue >> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, >> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from >> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics >> background. The primary audience of this new mailing list >> would be educators and students in a liberal arts >> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for >> studying functional programming. Currently, the language >> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is >> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has >> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming >> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell >> may either not have a computer science background, or may >> not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts >> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, >> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find >> valuable information to aid their research, but may be >> welcome >> in a more education-focused context. >> >> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, >> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching >> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding >> questions from students in that context, would help >> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread >> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in >> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could >> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and >> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background >> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators >> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected >> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science >> background. >> >> -- Benjamin L. Russell >> >> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow >> wrote: >> >> >>> From: Simon Marlow >>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing >>> >> list >> >>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>> >> >> >>> Cc: "John Peterson" >>> >> >> >>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM >>> Hi Benjamin, >>> >>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list >>> >> has >> >>> a narrow >>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this >>> >> case >> >>> you're >>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it >>> needs discussion >>> amongst the community before we create the list, so >>> >> that we >> >>> can keep a >>> consistent strategy. >>> >>> That's not to say that I disagree with your >>> >> proposal. >> >>> But it doesn't >>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and >>> >> why >> >>> haskell-cafe >>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that >>> >> isn't >> >>> clear is whether the >>> list you're proposing is for people interested in >>> *teaching* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or >>> >> people >> >>> *learning* Haskell (in >>> which case I'd consider carefully whether >>> >> haskell-cafe >> >>> shoudn't be >>> serving that need). That's something you need to >>> clarify when proposing >>> this list to the community. >>> >>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to >>> haskell@haskell.org in the >>> first instance, and see what response you get. >>> >> Discussion >> >>> should move >>> to haskell-cafe quickly. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Simon >>> >>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail >>>> >>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new >>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to >>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the >>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org. >>> >>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>> >> interested in >> >>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan >>> >> to call >> >>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research >>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the >>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to >>> non-computer science major students. >>> >>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>> >> mailing >> >>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and >>> >> Haskell-Cafe >> >>> for the past six months or so, but the former is >>> >> devoted to >> >>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research >>> >> matters. >> >>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly >>> >> academic >> >>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an >>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science >>> >> majors >> >>> interested in learning Haskell. >>> >>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request >>>> >> you to >> >>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you >>> >> please >> >>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows: >>> >>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu >>>> E-mail Address: haskell-edu@haskell.org >>>> Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing >>>> >> List: >> >>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in >>> Education >>> >>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do >>>> >> to >> >>> start this mailing list? Should I host it on >>> >> haskell.org, >> >>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org >>> >> mailing >> >>> list service? Also, how should I have it listed in >>> >> the >> >>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the >>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community? >>> >>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>> >> cooperation. >> >>>> Sincerely yours, >>>> >>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> From: John Peterson >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new >>>>> >> Haskell-related >> >>> mailing list >>> >>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM >>>>> Hi Benjamin, >>>>> >>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing >>>>> >>> list. Simon >>> >>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if >>>>> >> you >> >>> drop him >>> >>>>> and email he'll do the setup for >>>>> >> Haskell.org. >> >>> Once the >>> >>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and >>>>> >> add it >> >>> to the >>> >>>>> appropriate pages. >>>>> >>>>> We've had a bunch of these special >>>>> >> interest >> >>> lists and >>> >>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but >>>>> >> you >> >>> never know >>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related >>>>> >> mailing >> >>> list >>> >>>>> To: "John Peterson" >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM >>>>> Greetings, >>>>> >>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am >>>>> >>> interested in >>> >>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which >>>>> >> I >> >>> plan to >>> >>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to >>>>> >>> non-research >>> >>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by >>>>> >> the >> >>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more >>>>> >> accessible >> >>> to >>> >>>>> non-computer science major students. (This >>>>> >>> message is >>> >>>>> being addressed to you because I had already >>>>> >> sent >> >>> the >>> >>>>> portion below twice to other administrators >>>>> >> at >> >>> Haskell.org, >>> >>>>> first to mailman-owner@haskell.org, and then >>>>> >> to >> >>>>> simonmarhaskell@gmail.com, but had not >>>>> >> received a >> >>> response >>> >>>>> on either occasion.) >>>>> >>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other >>>>> >>> mailing >>> >>>>> lists. I have regularly read both Haskell >>>>> >> and >> >>> Haskell-Cafe >>> >>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former >>>>> >> is >> >>> devoted to >>> >>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to >>>>> >> research >> >>> matters. >>> >>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is >>>>> >> overly >> >>> academic >>> >>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this >>>>> >>> creates an >>> >>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer >>>>> >>> science majors >>> >>>>> interested in learning Haskell. >>>>> >>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to >>>>> >> do to >> >>> start >>> >>>>> this mailing list? Should I host it on >>>>> >>> haskell.org, or >>> >>>>> just start it by myself using a >>>>> >> non-Haskell.org >> >>> mailing >>> >>>>> list service? Also, how should I have it >>>>> >> listed >> >>> in the >>> >>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" >>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) >>>>> >> page for >> >>> the >>> >>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell >>>>> >> community? >> >>>>> Thank you very much for your time and >>>>> >> cooperation. >> >>>>> Sincerely yours, >>>>> >>>>> Benjamin L. Russell >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Haskell mailing list >> Haskell@haskell.org >> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell >> > _______________________________________________ > Haskell mailing list > Haskell@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/attachments/20080702/10af09c8/attachment-0001.htm From byorgey at seas.upenn.edu Wed Jul 2 15:42:31 2008 From: byorgey at seas.upenn.edu (Brent Yorgey) Date: Wed Jul 2 15:33:37 2008 Subject: [Haskell] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 75 - July 2, 2008 Message-ID: <20080702194231.GA9221@minus.seas.upenn.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20080702 Issue 75 - July 02, 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to issue 75 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. Announcements Anglo Haskell 2008. Matthew Sackman [2]announced [3]AngloHaskell 2008, a gathering of all people Haskell-related from beginners, to seasoned hackers to academic giants. All and more are welcomed by large fuzzy green lambdas. The proposed dates and location are Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th of August, at Imperial College, London. CFP - Special Issue of Fundamenta Informaticae on Dependently Typed Programming. Wouter Swierstra [4]announced a call for papers for a special issue of [5]Fundamenta Informaticae on [6]Dependently Typed Programming. The deadline for submissions is October 1. Gtk2Hs 0.9.13. Peter Gavin [7]announced the release of Gtk2Hs 0.9.13, including bindings for Gnome VFS and GStreamer, a new Gtk+ tutorial adapted by Hans van Thiel, cairo image stride support, and more. Hasim. Jochem Berndsen [8]announced Hasim, a [9]small project to create a library to do discrete event simulation in Haskell, using monads to define a domain-specific language for "actions" of a process. Galois move. Don Stewart [10]announced that Galois has completed the move of its data center. Expect speedier response times for hackage.haskell.org and darcs.haskell.org. Google Summer of Code Progress updates from participants in the 2008 [11]Google Summer of Code. Hoogle 4. Neil Mitchell (ndm) is working on [12]Hoogle 4. [13]This week, Neil worked on better Haddock database generation, lazy name searching, and a snazzy --info flag for Hoogle. Next up: type search! DPH physics engine. Roman Cheplyaka (Feuerbach) is working on a [14]physics engine using [15]Data Parallel Haskell. [16]This week, he worked on implementing Mirtich's V-Clip algorithm for collision detection (and [17]got it to work), cabalized his project and added documentation. He also ran into an interesting QuickCheck puzzle. Generic tries. Jamie Brandon is working on a library for efficient maps using generalized tries. [18]This week, he created a generic framework for automatically running QuickCheck tests at a number of different types. This week he plans to synthesize the many suggestions from the [19]discussion on the libraries list into a stable API design. Language.C. Benedikt Huber (visq) is [20]working on Language.C, a standalone parser/pretty printer library for C99. [21]This week he worked on a better representation for declarators, and abstracted the notion of an InputStream over both String and ByteString, among other accomplishments. GHC plugins. Max Bolingbroke is working on dynamically loaded plugins for GHC. Cabal dependency framework. Andrea Vezzosi (Saizan) is working on a [22]make-like dependency analysis framework for Cabal. GHC API. Thomas Schilling (nominolo) is working on [23]improvements to the GHC API. Officials at HWN headquarters have released a statement reversing their previous position regarding the existence of Thomas, citing regrettably faulty information to explain their previous misapprehensions. Expect to hear more from Thomas soon, now that he has finished graduating and moving. Libraries Proposals and extensions to the [24]standard libraries. GetOpt formatting improvements. Duncan Coutts [25]proposed some modifications to make the output of the System.Console.GetOpt library more readable, resulting in quite a bit of discussion. HughesPJ improvements. Benedikt Huber [26]proposed a patch with some bug fixes, performance improvements, and QuickCheck test suite for the Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ pretty-printing library. Discussion A Monad for on-demand file generation?. Joachim Breitner [27]asked about a monad for transparently tracking files which may need to be regenerated due to dependencies, leading to an interesting discussion of incremental computation, strict vs. lazy I/O, and other issues. New mailing list proposal: Haskell-Edu. Benjamin L. Russell sent out a message [28]proposing a new mailing list hosted at haskell.org, "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." The new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education. Comments and discussion welcomed. Learning GADT types to simulate dependent types. Paul Johnson is trying to use GADTs to simulate aspects of a dependently typed system, and [29]asks for help improving his Oleg rating. Call graph tool?. C.M.Brown [30]asked whether there is a tool for visualizing the call graph for a collection of source files, leading to a discussion of various tools. Jobs Formal methods and automated reasoning at Rockwell Collins. Janis Voigtlaender [31]passed on an opening for a Senior Systems Engineer at [32]Rockwell Collins. The opening is for a computer scientist or engineer to develop and apply automated analysis to computer systems and to pursue research in formal methods and automated reasoning. Contact: rmgatto at rockwellcollins.com. Blog noise [33]Haskell news from the [34]blogosphere. * Roman Cheplyaka: [35]V-Clip seems to work!. * Benedikt Huber: [36]Last week on Language.C (1). An update on Benedikt's Google Summer of Code project. * Jamie Brandon: [37]Week 3 progress. An update on Jamie's Google Summer of Code project. * Philip Wadler: [38]Welcome to Scotland, Neil, Patricia, and Conor!. * >>> codders: [39]Coding style, Haskell. codders likes how Real World Haskell gives some hints about Haskell coding style and culture in addition to teaching the language itself. * >>> zoo: [40]Haskell plug-in for Eclipse. zoo explains how to install the [41]Haskell Eclipse plugin. * Dan Piponi (sigfpe): [42]A blessed man's formula for holey containers. Dan descries an enlightening derivation of the [43]combinatorial form of Faa di Bruno's formula from the perspective of derivatives of types. * Roman Cheplyaka: [44]Status report: week 5. An update on Roman's Google Summer of Code project. * >>> codders: [45]More Haskell fun. * >>> Marco Tulio Gontijo e Silva: [46]Rank 2 Types. Marco describes a practical use for GHC's rank-2 types. * Edward Kmett: [47]Memoizing Context. * >>> JP Moresmau: [48]Deserializing JSON to Haskell Data objects. * >>> codders: [49]Getting started with Haskell... still. codders is learning Haskell by reading the beta version of [50]Real World Haskell. * Neil Mitchell: [51]GSoC Hoogle: Week 5. * Arnar: [52]Parsing JSON with Haskell. A nice example of using [53]Parsec to parse JSON. * Thomas Hartman: [54]HAppS Tutorial. Quotes of the Week * quicksilver: [on what OS sjanssen uses] sjanssen runs haskell programs in his head; much more efficient. * EvilTerran: "We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the phantom types began to take hold." * audreyt: o/~ the phantom of the typesystem is here / inside my mind! o/~ * dmwit: No, no, no, ($) isn't right-assoc, it's wrong-assoc. * solrize: this would never happen in haskell: i sent in a search query to a certain python program, but left the query field empty, expecting to get back an error message. instead it found a bunch of books written by the diet doctor Gary Null. * heatsink: We're all inside do-blocks in the IO monad if you think about it. * djsiegel: [upon having a question answered by dons] oh my, I'm talking to the man * mar77a: the first computers were big because they were actually cupboards with fast humans inside About the Haskell Weekly News New editions are posted to [55]the Haskell mailing list as well as to [56]the Haskell Sequence and [57]Planet Haskell. [58]RSS is also available, and headlines appear on [59]haskell.org. Headlines are available as [60]PDF. To help create new editions of this newsletter, please see the information on [61]how to contribute. Send stories to byorgey at seas dot upenn dot edu. The darcs repository is available at darcs get [62]http://code.haskell.org/~byorgey/code/hwn/ . References 1. http://haskell.org/ 2. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16272 3. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/AngloHaskell/2008 4. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/16269 5. http://fi.mimuw.edu.pl/ 6. http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/darcs/DTP08/journal.html 7. http://www.haskell.org//pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-June/044805.html 8. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41881 9. http://huygens.functor.nl/hasim 10. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/41847 11. http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/wiki/SoC2008 12. http://code.haskell.org/hoogle/ 13. http://neilmitchell.blogspot.com/2008/06/gsoc-hoogle-week-5.html 14. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hpysics 15. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Parallel_Haskell 16. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/06/status-report-week-5.html 17. http://physics-dph.blogspot.com/2008/07/v-clip-seems-to-work.html 18. http://jamiiecb.blogspot.com/2008/06/week-3-progress.html 19. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/9259 20. http://www.sivity.net/projects/language.c/wiki/ 21. http://hsbene.blogspot.com/2008/07/last-week-on-languagec-1.html 22. http://code.haskell.org/~Saizan/cabal 23. http://hacka