Personal tools

Talk:Euler problems

From HaskellWiki

Revision as of 22:36, 23 February 2008 by Hk (Talk | contribs)

Jump to: navigation, search

As one of the teammembers of Project Euler I must say that you are doing Project Euler not a great favour by maintaining this site. How is it possible that you are so blinded by your enthousiasm of a particular programming environment that you lose out of sight the true nature of Project Euler: problem solving, disregarding all differences of programming languages. As all problems are there, even the most recent ones, those responsible for this must be found among our 100%-ers. Please realise how much work of us you are spoiling with this work and stop spoling our work. Better still: remove it altogether from public domain. Threatening to consider any amendment as vandalism is really a gotspe. It's you that are vandalising our work.

Hans Klein (aka hk)


quote: On the other hand, this problem space is perfect for illustrating the power of Haskell, and for providing excellent examples of how to "think in Haskell".

The solutions to some of the harder problems are in C++, so that has nothing to do with the power of Haskell. Please remove the solutions from this page. If you want to show your Haskell solution please do so in the forum of a problem.

Stijn aka henk263


If you openly publish problems, people will be free to openly publish solutions to them. There's not a whole lot which can be done about it. This is the same issue as a game developer saying "please don't publish a walkthrough to our game". You can ask, but it's pretty much guaranteed that someone will inevitably do it.

Moreover, it doesn't harm anyone's enjoyment of the game. The pages are clearly marked as containing spoilers, and those who don't want to see the spoilers can avoid them quite easily.

CaleGibbard 18:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The solutions in C++ would indeed be better off replaced by Haskell code. This is, after all the Haskell wiki. However, removing the solutions altogether would be silly. (Not to mention ineffective, as they would remain in the page history.)

If you want to have a contest with problems to which nobody can look up the solution, construct a list of problems which nobody has seen before and hold the contest all at once. Long term contests in which the problems have trivial (i.e. known) solutions won't hold up.

CaleGibbard 19:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand Project Euler. To my opninion it's not a contest. But by publishing worked out solutions you are spoiling the fun for those that love to solve problems. Of course not much can be done to such "look me being smart" people that haven't even to guts to design their own problems to write their programming tutorial. Moreover stealing other peoples solutions (problem 181) does not look very smart either.

hk

Those who love to solve problems should have no problem with this site. They just won't read it. The only possible way one could have a complaint about published solutions to the problems is if one thought of the site as a contest by which people are being judged and compared. If the problems are meant only for personal use, there's no issue, since the only person one might cheat by looking at the solution is oneself.

If one had already given up on finding the solution, being able to look at a solution is potentially educational as well.

I should perhaps point out that I've not personally had any hand in constructing any of these solutions (though I did clean up the formatting on some of them not long ago), and haven't spent much time working on Project Euler myself either (the problems are not of a sort which I find interesting, there are not nearly enough universal quantifiers in them). I do, however, think that people who put useful things on this wiki should not have them arbitrarily damaged.

CaleGibbard 20:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Quite a few of the recent C++ additions are just stolen from the problem's forum. I'm pretty sure that neither balakrishnan nor Daniel.is.fischer put anything here.

henk263

Cale All your arguments fail if you see that the one that put those Haskell (and C++) solutions here has even gone so far as to put the direct answers to the problems on this page http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Euler_answers. This goes too far. I urgently request that that page and this one should be removed from this Haskell wiki. This has nothing to do with Haskell anymore.

hk

I still don't see why you should care about the solutions being published. If particular solutions can be shown to violate people's copyright, then those should be removed. Everything on this wiki is meant to be published under the simple permissive license. Otherwise, I see no reason to remove anything.

CaleGibbard 21:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

For me, it spoils the fun of 'climbing up the ladder'. I don't get why this list of numbers belongs in an HASKELLwiki :S

henk263

If it would spoil the fun, don't look at it. What's your problem? If your value system is so messed up that you get more satisfaction out of seeing your progress bar go up faster than other people's progress bars than from actually solving the problems yourself, then I think you probably have some serious self-evaluation to do. Also, until then, I have a video game in which you might be interested

CaleGibbard 22:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess I do see project euler partly as a contest. There's no need to get personal. I'm very sure that I'm not the only one who doesn't like the idea that all solutions are available to everyone.

Also aren't almost all online games based on seeing your own progress bar go up faster than other people's? Not that PE is a game, but still, I don't think I need to do any self-evaluation :S

henk263

You definitely have some introspection to do regarding your motives for doing things.

The pages won't be removed, and none of the solutions will be removed unless you can prove some legal reason that they must be. Obviously some people find them useful, they are largely Haskell content, or of use to people solving the problems in Haskell, and so are on topic. Leave it alone.

CaleGibbard 22:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The Project Euler problems are copyrighted under the creative commons license. http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=copyright http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/uk/ Legal version http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/uk/legalcode If you read this you will see that the simple permissive license is not identical to the creative commons licence. The share alike condition reads: "Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under a licence identical to this one." So in fact the pages I referred to are both infringing in the Project Euler copyright.

hk

None of these pages contain any of the problem statements or content published on the Project Euler site.

CaleGibbard 22:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

You overlook the phrase "or build upon this work," and you cannot deny that those pages build on the Project Euler work.

hk



These pages must be deleted.

They are not in the spirit of Project Euler.

They are ruining the fun of problems and the fun of climbing up the ladder.

I am aware that whoever posted this is probably smart and would like us all to know.

Meanwhile:

RULE #1 of Project Euler:

You do not discuss Project Euler solutions.

RULE #2 of Project Euler:

You do not discuss Project Euler solutions.

Keep it in the problem threads.


I disagree. These are clearly marked as "spoilers". Anyone who wants to participate in Project Euler and enjoy its benefits knows that they should not peek at these solutions.

On the other hand, this problem space is perfect for illustrating the power of Haskell, and for providing excellent examples of how to "think in Haskell". I would refer anyone thinking of learning Haskell to these pages - with the warning that they might first want to solve all of the problems in their current favorite programming language.

My guess is that many people would look at the first few solutions, become hooked, and then redo the rest of them on their own in Haskell without peeking!


You kill the fun!

There is only way to publish solution - just protect access to it with right solution answer, as Euler protects access to forum's threads.

But in wiki - these pages must be deleted.


Note that if you delete these pages, it will be treated as vandalism and reverted. CaleGibbard 19:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


Category tags are great for making the Haskell wiki easier to navigate. But having category tags on all of the detail pages of these problem sets has the opposite effect - it just clutters the category pages.

I am removing the category tags from all of the detail pages, and leaving them only on the main page.


Either restrict the access to these pages to those who have the solution or delete them, please. It's just not cricket to violate the Project Euler spirit. Daniel.is.fischer