<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Simon PJ missed out the haskell-beginners list, but I encourage you to fill out the survey below as well.<br><br></div>Now you may ask, "Well, I'm still learning haskell and I don't know enough."<br><br></div>But consider that by being on this list and by haskelling whatever you may consider as utterly insignificant, you're still waaaaaaaay ahead than those who have yet to reach haskell at all.<br><br>Your opinion counts.<br><br></div>Because those _after_ you will help provide jobs by creating haskell projects, just like you.<br><br></div>But unlike them, you get to influence the haskell of tomorrow that will be their first encounter, whether that would be a haskell that's friendlier or more @#$%^& than what it is today.<br><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>The survey link is here: <b><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX</a><br></span></b></div><div><br></div><div>Summaries (each quite long) are here:<br></div><br></div><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Overall summary:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710</a></span><p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Details of Plan List:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List</a></span></p>
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Details of Plan FTP:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP</a></span><br><br clear="all"><div><div><div class="gmail_signature">Fwiw, I voted to delay FTP. In fact, here's what I wrote:<br><br>"FTP is rushed and potentially unstable. I don't think we understand all about Traversable that we think we do, which might mean another big Prelude overhaul in the future.<br><br>Actually, FTP doesn't even belong in 7.12 per se. It belongs in a new Haskell language standard and if that coincides with GHC 7.12, great. If not, it can wait for GHC 8.x and up."<br><br></div><div class="gmail_signature">Because I've been keeping tabs on FTP I wrote my opinion without perusing the summaries, but on doing so later, I stumbled upon the following points that happen to reflect my exact observations, points that are relevant to learning haskell and growing the haskell community:<br><br><a href="https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List">https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List</a><br><br><ul><li>The existing corpus of books, tutorials, syllabi, and the like
usually have a significant portion of the text dedicated to these very
Prelude functions - and they would all need significant revision.
</li></ul><ul><li>Teaching beginners what sequence means in its full generality is going to be a challenge.
</li></ul><ul><li>While teaching beginners who end up on #haskell IRC
might be possible, this is likely to increase the "bounce" rate, people
who see Haskell, play around, and run away scared. I think Haskell
probably has a higher bounce rate than most other languages, making it
worse would be bad.
</li></ul><br></div><div class="gmail_signature">Whether you agree or disagree with the above, now's the time to make yourself heard. The survey closes Feb 21.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_signature">p.s. Needless to say, feel free to discuss FTP on this list should your opinion need a sounding board and a bit of time (not too long!) to firm up.<br><br>-- Kim-Ee</div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Simon Peyton Jones</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>></span><br>Date: Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:50 PM<br>Subject: GHC 7.10 Prelude: we need your opinion<br>To: "<a href="mailto:haskell@haskell.org">haskell@haskell.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:haskell@haskell.org">haskell@haskell.org</a>>, "Haskell Cafe (<a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org">haskell-cafe@haskell.org</a>)" <<a href="mailto:haskell-cafe@haskell.org">haskell-cafe@haskell.org</a>>, GHC users <<a href="mailto:glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org">glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org">ghc-devs@haskell.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org">ghc-devs@haskell.org</a>><br><br><br>
<div link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Haskell Friends</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt">This email asks for your help in deciding how to proceed with some Prelude changes in GHC 7.10. Please read on, but all the info is also at the survey link, here:
<a href="http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX" target="_blank">http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX</a>. Deadline is 21 Feb.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Core Libraries Committee (CLC) is responsible for developing the core libraries that ship with GHC. This is an important but painstaking task, and we owe the CLC a big vote of thanks for taking it on.</p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For over a year the CLC has been working on integrating the
<b>Foldable and Traversable classes</b> (shipped in base in GHC 7.8) into the core libraries, and into the Prelude in particular. Detailed planning for GHC 7.10 started in the autumn of 2014, and the CLC went ahead with this integration.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Then we had a failure of communication. As these changes affect the Prelude, which is in scope for all users of Haskell, these changes should be held to a higher bar than the regular libraries@ review process.
However, the Foldable/Traversable changes were not particularly well signposted. Many people have only recently woken up to them, and some have objected (both in principle and detail).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">This is an extremely unfortunate situation. On the one hand we are at RC2 for GHC 7.10, so library authors have invested effort in updating their libraries to the new Prelude. On the other, altering the Prelude
is in effect altering the language, something we take pretty seriously. We should have had this debate back in 2014, but here we are, and it is unproductive to argue about whose fault it is. We all share responsibility.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We need to decide what to do now. A small group of us met by Skype and we've decided to do this:</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Push back GHC 7.10's release by at least a month, to late March. This delay also gives us breathing space to address an unrelated show-stopping bug, Trac #9858.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Invite input from the Haskell community on which of two approaches to adopt (<a href="http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX" target="_blank">this survey</a>). The main questions revolve around impact on
the Haskell ecosystem (commercial applications, teaching, libraries, etc etc), so we want to ask your opinion rather than guess it.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ask Simon Marlow and Simon Peyton Jones to decide which approach to follow for GHC 7.10.
</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Wiki pages have been created summarizing these two primary alternatives, including many more points and counter-points and technical details:
</span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:36pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Overall summary:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE1p5w-YCXC7ixebvwObayuV7Ut4w" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:36pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Details of Plan List:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FList&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHaufeSwtIsvZwdVXwP9F9G45zLSA" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/List</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:36pt;margin-bottom:0.0001pt">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Details of Plan FTP:
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fghc.haskell.org%2Ftrac%2Fghc%2Fwiki%2FPrelude710%2FFTP&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNHbhNyIwAbcOd3JfikIhD6S7rc-vw" target="_blank">
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Prelude710/FTP</a></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">This survey invites your input on which plan we should follow. Would you please</span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5pt;margin-left:35.7pt">
<span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Read the details of the alternative plans on the three wiki pages above</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt"><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Add your response to
<a href="http://goo.gl/forms/XP1W2JdfpX" target="_blank">the survey</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Please do read the background. Well-informed responses will help. Thank you!</span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">DEADLINE: 21 February 2015</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Simon PJ</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
ghc-devs mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org">ghc-devs@haskell.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs" target="_blank">http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs</a><br>
<br></div><br></div></div></div></div>