<div dir="ltr">Agreed.<div><br></div><div style>having relatively bug free "technology preview" releases, which (perhaps ideally) have new functionality included in a way that keeps the breakage overhead lowish, on a regular basis, is ideal.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>one thought on the api hacking front:</div><div style><br></div><div style>the main concern we're hitting is that we want to not "pin" internal GHC apis, yet we want to make the breakage rate on libraries people may want to use that might depend on say GHC.Prim or <a href="http://GHC.TH">GHC.TH</a> to be minimal.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Is a possible solution that on preview releases we have the changed bits of API for a module M to be exported in a module M.Experimental?</div><div style><br></div><div style>eg, new ghc primops in a tech preview release maybe are exported by GHC.Prim.Experimental</div>
<div style>(or something of this sort?)</div><div style><br></div><div style>just throwing out one possible point in the design space.</div><div style><br></div><div style>cheers</div><div style>-Carter</div><div><br></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Simon Peyton-Jones <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com" target="_blank">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div><div class="im">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(a) There are packages which tend to track GHC's latest version instead of the HP (yesod used to do this, which was a source of much pain).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="color:#1f497d">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(b) There are linux distributions which always track the latest everything, often in a rolling-release fashion (notably Arch). They are actively hostile to the Platform, and a source of even greater pain. Many
package authors update because Arch users demand it and openly insult anyone who points them to the Platform or any policy which suggests that anything other then the absolutely latest version is acceptable.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">These must be
<i>social</i> questions (what I was earlier calling “signposting”) rather than technical ones. For example, you say that (b) is not subject to any variety of reason, and yet no linux distribution tracks HEAD, does it? They don’t openly insult anyone who points
to a release just because HEAD has new cool stuff! No, they track things we call “releases”. Very well, maybe we should call them “previews” instead, and only dignify it as a “release” when, and only when a preview is picked by HP as worthy of incorporation
in the next HP. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Or something. I’m just looking for a way to reconcile<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Release early, release often<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Stability for the Haskell Platform<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It seems to me that such a reconciliation is within reach, and is actually very close to what we do, if we only signpost what is what far more vigorously and
clearly than we do now. But maybe I’m wrong.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Simon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Brandon Allbery [mailto:<a href="mailto:allbery.b@gmail.com" target="_blank">allbery.b@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 February 2013 01:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Simon Peyton-Jones<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Simon Marlow; Mark Lentczner; Manuel M T Chakravarty; <a href="mailto:kostirya@gmail.com" target="_blank">kostirya@gmail.com</a>; glasgow-haskell-users; <a href="mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org" target="_blank">ghc-devs@haskell.org</a>; Edsko de Vries</span></p>
<div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: GHC 7.8 release?<u></u><u></u></div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Simon Peyton-Jones <<a href="mailto:simonpj@microsoft.com" target="_blank">simonpj@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal">What causes the "wave of package updates"? Just because GHC 7.8 (say) comes out, no package author need lift a finger. The Haskell Platform sets the pace for package updates. When the Haskell Platform comes out, now THAT is indeed a trigger
for a wave of updates. Authors of packages in HP are forced to act; authors of other packages want their packages to work with the next HP.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(a) There are packages which tend to track GHC's latest version instead of the HP (yesod used to do this, which was a source of much pain).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(b) There are linux distributions which always track the latest everything, often in a rolling-release fashion (notably Arch). They are actively hostile to the Platform, and a source of even greater pain. Many package authors update because
Arch users demand it and openly insult anyone who points them to the Platform or any policy which suggests that anything other then the absolutely latest version is acceptable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You *might* be able to control expectations with respect to (a); (b) is not subject to any variety of reason. It will produce as much pressure as it has users, plus multiply that pressure by the number of package authors who are also users.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:allbery.b@gmail.com" target="_blank">allbery.b@gmail.com</a> <a href="mailto:ballbery@sinenomine.net" target="_blank">ballbery@sinenomine.net</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad <a href="http://sinenomine.net" target="_blank">http://sinenomine.net</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
ghc-devs mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:ghc-devs@haskell.org">ghc-devs@haskell.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs" target="_blank">http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>