<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think this is a valuable discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The compromise you propose wouldn’t address the main point – the fear and aversion of using (L)GPL IP in proprietary IP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For me the key phrase in your email was the final one – ‘if my reading is correct’. Everywhere I would take advantage of this modified license I will need to get the lawyers of the people owning the host IP to agree to this interpretation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have checked all of the packages in the Haskell Platform and they are all BSD3. If it had been otherwise it would have destroyed a significant part of the value of the HP – clear and straightforward licensing implications for using it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I really don’t want to plough work into a package that can’t be bundled with the HP, the natural home for strategically-important high-quality libraries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Turning this around, it is going to be much easier to get people who are using Haskell in commercial contexts to contribute to HDBC if it has a license that meets their requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I do appreciate your concerns – I have regularly contributed code to the community and want to continue doing so – but I think there is little real prospect of HDBC being attacked by a proprietary derivative. I don’t doubt there will be some free-loading, but this might be the inevitable price of attracting more investment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> John Goerzen [mailto:jgoerzen@complete.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> 23 February 2011 16:33<br><b>To:</b> Chris Dornan<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Haskell Cafe'; 'Gershom Bazerman'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Haskell-cafe] HDBC's future and request for help<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On 02/23/2011 05:48 AM, Chris Dornan wrote:<br>> The simple answer is that I need to be able to use HDBC in proprietary<br>> products and the LGPL makes this awkward – the most serious issue being<br>> that owners of the code base don’t want GNU licensed parts being linked<br>> into their code base. Packaging and delivery also gets complicated – (as<br>> I understand it) LGPL components can’t be delivered pre-linked,<br>> necessitating dynamic linking of the relevant libraries or supplying a<br>> GHC kit which the customer must use to assemble the product. This is all<br>> a significant drag.<br><br>Let's talk about specifics. I imagine that in LGPL-3 that the only<br>clause for objection here is 4(d)0, which requires that the proprietary<br>application be conveyed in a form such that the user can relink it with<br>a modified version of the library.<br><br>I would be willing to add an exemption to that requirement to the HDBC<br>license, which should address that concern.<br><br>What do you think?<br><br>> Also, wouldn’t it be good to get HDBC into the Haskell Platform? – but<br>> we can’t do this while it is LGPL can we?<br><br>Why not?<br><br>> On the other side, what are the risks with adopting a BSD license? Is it<br>> that somebody could fork the library into a proprietary Haskell DB<br>> library that would compete with HDBC?<br><br>That's one way to put it. It's a big complaint I have about the BSD<br>license. There are many, many examples of companies taking things<br>licensed under BSD, adding features small or large, selling the result<br>at profit, and neither releasing the source for the new features to the<br>community nor compensating the original authors in any way.<br><br>I see a distinction between someone that just wants to *use* HDBC and<br>between someone that wants to "embrace and extend" it.<br><br>I know that work I do on Linux, Haskell, etc. leads to companies such as<br>Ubuntu making a profit off my work, for which they don't compensate me.<br> I also know that if they improve on it, and it's GPL, they have to<br>return those improvements to the community so we can all benefit.<br><br>I am bothered by the notion of letting companies take work I've done on<br>a volunteer basis, close it up, change it, never compensate me for it<br>and also never release the changes to the community. This is why I<br>prefer to avoid the BSD license.<br><br>In the case of HDBC, if all somebody wants to do is use vanilla HDBC in<br>their program without having to release the source to the proprietary<br>program or jump through hoops to let end users replace HDBC, then I<br>think that LGPL with the modification I proposed above would meet both<br>their concern and mine. The LGPL would still require them to note<br>HDBC's copyright (which the BSD license requires as well), and to<br>distribute source to any modifications they make *to HDBC*, but impose<br>no other onerous restrictions if my reading is correct.<br><br>- John</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div><p class=avgcert>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3462 - Release Date: 02/23/11<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>