Stuck between Prolog and Smalltalk

Justin Walsh [email protected]
Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:30:03 +1100


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Hi,
This is my first email to Haskell.org, and am very much a Haskell =
newbie.
I have been fighting with Prolog and Smalltalk devotees for so many =
years: each one seeming to treat the other as the "arch" enemy.
Perhaps I can get better response from the Haskell community.
I have been, for the last ten years, acting upperCase(philosophical) and =
lowerCase (technical) researcher/consultant to Heyile Pty Ltd. in Sydney =
Australia.
The purpose of the Ripose Technology is to provide the Conceptual =
missing link that has, for years evaded Smalltalk and Prolog application =
designers ie provision of Industriel strength, Enterprise Wide  =
Definition and Business Wide (software) Definitions.
The EWD seemed always to be a consensus, an agreement to fail. Every =
application had to be carefully hand crafted by a language programmer, =
acting for the business in  accordance with what the programmer thought =
the entepreneur needed. Where is the industrial strength? Metaphysics =
seemed all they have to fall back on. =20
When I met this guy, Richter, in 1992 I saw something mind bogglingly =
different in the way he designed business application: in hours rather =
than years and accurate.=20
I agreed to use him and his technique to design for himself, free of =
charge, his own Business (Ripose Pty Ltd) and Enterprise =
(Ripose.Foundation) as proof of the Ripose concept, in return for the =
important front end: the Conceptual Pre-processor. This effectivily =
becomes free of charge to the design community.
The Ripose Foundation (still only and idea) needs good disciplined =
competent programmers who do not feel insulted if they are required to =
program to strict definition. In short no hackers.
The toolset is currently limited by the tools he was compelled to use =
for the last ten years: Omnis.=20
I believe that the free bit could be redone in Haskell. The rewards are =
limited only by the imagination.
Am I barking up the wrong tree?

http://www.ripose.com/Mydream/  Please proceed to the price list to see =
the free bits. In my opinion the most important attributes.

Justin Walsh

=3D=3D=3DLast conversation between Richter and  a Foundation =
member=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Gerhard=20
Thanks for your response.=20

Omnis Studio is only my suggestion because I know the product fairly =
well and the Caspar (computer assisted strategic planning and reasoning) =
engine is the robust client server version currently running very well =
at the moment.=20

The data base design behind Caspar is probably even more important than =
the code itself. Hence it does not matter to me whether the final =
eCaspar is written in Omnis Studio or anything else.=20

If the response times of eCaspar are better than or even comparable to =
Caspar, I would have no hesitation to have Caspar replaced by eCaspar. =
This would then obviate the need to maintain two sets of code.=20

The reason behind this statement is that I have still not successfully =
found a way to do a simple <a href> in the Omnis Studio Web based =
product. If this is not achieved then my whole strategy of delivering =
eCaspar in Omnis Studio, is in jeopardy.=20

Quite frankly I do not really see the need to web enable Caspar as =
Caspar is probably more efficient and effective in its client server =
form than it will be if it was web enabled. Just to satisfy a few people =
who like the look and feel of a program running in a web browser does =
not appear to be a very sound strategy. They will still have to learn =
how to use the product and then decide to use our services!=20

The main benefit of using Ripose and Caspar is to assist an entrepreneur =
rapidly design their ideal world and then test whether or not the idea =
will 'fly'. This must be done before investing any more of their or =
someone else's (business person's) hard earned money. Anyone interested =
in 'opportunism' will shy away from using Ripose and hence Caspar.=20

Ripose achieves this benefit by providing the steps a Ripose architect =
has to take in order to clarify the idea/dream/thinking of the =
initiator/entrepreneur and thus produce/develop the ideal world and then =
test the idea.=20

It does this by creating a hierarchy of objects and getting the =
entrepreneur, business person, technical person and process worker to =
clarify the following:=20

  a..  Concept behind  the entrepreneur/business/person's existence by =
delivering the idea via two deliverables - objectives and a proof of =
concept. These two documents describes the:=20
    a.. Objects of the imagination - ie the objectives=20
      a.. Goals (1 Purpose, 4 missions/benefits and critical success =
factors (CSF)=20
      b.. The measures supporting each CSF, namely=20
        a.. Key performance indicators (KPI)=20
        b.. Service level agreements (SLA)=20
    b.. Objects behind the understanding of the objectives, namely the:=20
      a.. Knowledge base required to support the KPIs=20
      b.. Prioritized core and ancillary strategies/business functions =
and tactics/systems which will be needed to implement the knowledge base =

  b.. Objects of reasoning - ie the logic required to test the =
understanding, by delivering the proof of logic containing the:=20
    a.. Data architecture - containing the following objects=20
      a.. The facts/data/attributes supporting each object/entity in the =
knowledge base=20
      b.. The data bases containing the 'normalized' or 'de-normalized' =
facts=20
    b.. Process architecture - containing the following objects=20
      a.. The high level processes - eg 'read a file', 'open a window'=20
      b.. The structured pseudo code, utilizing the processes to act on =
the data base - sequence, selection and iteration=20
Finally we are now in a position for SQL and the languages to begin to =
'strut their stuff'=20
The Ripose technique and Caspar almost guarantee that the three =
deliverables will be delivered in less than 3 months. The time frame =
depends on the number of people in the enterprise=20

  a.. Objectives - about 10 days maximum - see =
http://www.ripose.com/Objectives.html for the savings associated with =
delivering the objectives=20
  b.. Strategies - about 20 days maximum - see =
http://www.ripose.com/Strategies.html for the savings associated with =
delivering the knowledge base and strategies=20
  c.. Logic - this depends on the number of tactics/systems chosen =
together with the number of tables in the associated data bases. The =
rule of thumb is not more than 10 working days for a data base =
containing 20 tables=20
I do not see how any other product on the market delivers the same =
benefit as Ripose and Caspar!=20
To build the Ripose enterprise (both the dot com and dot org sides) is =
no longer solely my responsibility. We need adult human beings to assist =
us.=20

Hope this helps clear more of the mist.=20

Regards=20
____________________________________=20

Charles Richter=20
Ripose Pty Limited=20
PO Box 244=20
Paddington  NSW  2021=20
Australia=20

Voice       (02) 8900 3234=20
Mobile      (04) 2520 3234=20
Facsimile  (02) 9437 9237=20

Web site   http://www.ripose.com=20

Newsletter November 2001=20
                http://www.ripose.com/NewsLetters/Issue03/Page1.html=20

 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20

Gerhard wrote:=20

   I agree with you that you should stick to omnis studio after so amny =
years of experience with it, I did not know that detail.(I look now at =
Omnis studio: I see that it is possible to connect to Apache , which can =
connect to mySQL...)

 =20



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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is my first email to =
Haskell.org,&nbsp;and am=20
very much a Haskell newbie.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have been fighting with Prolog and =
Smalltalk=20
devotees for so many years: each one seeming to treat the other as the =
"arch"=20
enemy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Perhaps I can get better response from =
the Haskell=20
community.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have been, for the last ten years, =
acting=20
upperCase(philosophical) and lowerCase (technical) researcher/consultant =

to&nbsp;Heyile Pty Ltd. in Sydney Australia.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The purpose of the =
<STRONG>R</STRONG>ipose=20
<STRONG>T</STRONG>echnology is to provide the Conceptual missing link =
that has,=20
for years evaded Smalltalk and Prolog application designers ie provision =
of=20
Industriel strength, <STRONG>E</STRONG>nterprise =
<STRONG>W</STRONG>ide&nbsp;=20
<STRONG>D</STRONG>efinition and <STRONG>B</STRONG>usiness =
<STRONG>W</STRONG>ide=20
(software) <STRONG>D</STRONG>efinitions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The EWD seemed always to be a =
consensus, an=20
agreement&nbsp;to fail. Every application had to be carefully hand =
crafted by a=20
language programmer, acting for the business in &nbsp;accordance =
with&nbsp;what=20
the programmer thought the entepreneur needed. Where&nbsp;is the =
industrial=20
strength? Metaphysics seemed all they have to fall back on.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When I met this guy, Richter,&nbsp;in =
1992 I saw=20
something mind bogglingly different in the way he designed business =
application:=20
in hours rather than years and accurate. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agreed to use him and his technique =
to design for=20
himself, <STRONG>free</STRONG> of charge, his own =
<STRONG>Business</STRONG>=20
(Ripose Pty Ltd) and <STRONG>Enterprise</STRONG> (Ripose.Foundation) as =
proof of=20
the Ripose concept, in return for the important front end: the =
Conceptual=20
Pre-processor. This effectivily&nbsp;becomes&nbsp;<STRONG>free</STRONG> =
of=20
charge to the design community.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Ripose Foundation (still only and =
idea) needs=20
good disciplined competent programmers who do not feel insulted&nbsp;if =
they are=20
required to program to strict definition. In short no =
hackers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The toolset is currently limited by the =
tools he=20
was compelled to use for the last ten years: Omnis. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe that the =
<STRONG>free</STRONG> bit could=20
be redone in Haskell. The rewards are limited only by the=20
imagination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Am I barking up the wrong =
tree?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ripose.com/Mydream/">http://www.ripose.com/Mydream/</A=
>&nbsp;=20
Please proceed to the price list to see the free bits. In my opinion the =
most=20
important attributes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Justin Walsh</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>=3D=3D=3DLast conversation =
between Richter=20
and&nbsp; a Foundation =
member=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Gerhard </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your response. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Omnis Studio is only my suggestion =
because I know the=20
product fairly well and the Caspar (computer assisted strategic planning =
and=20
reasoning) engine is the robust client server version currently running =
very=20
well at the moment. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The data base design behind Caspar is =
probably even=20
more important than the code itself. Hence it does not matter to me =
whether the=20
final eCaspar is written in Omnis Studio or anything else. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the response times of eCaspar are =
better than or=20
even comparable to Caspar, I would have no hesitation to have Caspar =
replaced by=20
eCaspar. This would then obviate the need to maintain two sets of code. =
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The reason behind this statement is that =
I have still=20
not successfully found a way to do a simple &lt;a href&gt; in the Omnis =
Studio=20
Web based product. If this is not achieved then my whole strategy of =
delivering=20
eCaspar in Omnis Studio, is in jeopardy. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Quite frankly I do not really see the =
need to web=20
enable Caspar as Caspar is probably more efficient and effective in its =
client=20
server form than it will be if it was web enabled. Just to satisfy a few =
people=20
who like the look and feel of a program running in a web browser does =
not appear=20
to be a very sound strategy. <I>They will still have to learn how to use =
the=20
product and then decide to use our services!</I> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main benefit of using Ripose and =
Caspar is to=20
assist an entrepreneur rapidly design their ideal world and then test =
whether or=20
not the idea will 'fly'. This must be done before investing any more of =
their or=20
someone else's (business person's) hard earned money. Anyone interested =
in=20
'opportunism' will shy away from using Ripose and hence Caspar. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ripose achieves this benefit by providing =
the steps a=20
Ripose <B>architect</B> has to take in order to clarify the =
idea/dream/thinking=20
of the initiator/entrepreneur and thus produce/develop the ideal world =
and then=20
test the idea. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It does this by creating a hierarchy of =
objects and=20
getting the entrepreneur, business person, technical person and process =
worker=20
to clarify the following: </FONT>
<UL>
  <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Concept behind&nbsp; the=20
  entrepreneur/business/person's existence by delivering the idea via =
two=20
  deliverables - objectives and a proof of concept. These two documents=20
  describes the: </FONT>
  <UL>
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Objects of the imagination - ie the =
objectives=20
    </FONT>
    <UL>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Goals (1 Purpose, 4 =
missions/benefits and=20
      critical success factors (CSF) </FONT>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The measures supporting each CSF, =
namely=20
      </FONT>
      <UL>
        <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Key performance indicators (KPI) =
</FONT>
        <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Service level agreements (SLA)=20
      </FONT></LI></UL></LI></UL>
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Objects behind the understanding of =
the=20
    objectives, namely the: </FONT>
    <UL>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Knowledge base required to support =
the KPIs=20
      </FONT>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Prioritized core and ancillary=20
      strategies/business functions and tactics/systems which will be =
needed to=20
      implement the knowledge base </FONT></LI></UL></LI></UL>
  <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Objects of reasoning - ie the logic =
required to=20
  test the understanding, by delivering the proof of logic containing =
the:=20
  </FONT>
  <UL>
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Data architecture - containing the =
following=20
    objects </FONT>
    <UL>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The facts/data/attributes =
supporting each=20
      object/entity in the knowledge base </FONT>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The data bases containing the =
'normalized' or=20
      'de-normalized' facts </FONT></LI></UL>
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Process architecture - containing =
the following=20
    objects </FONT>
    <UL>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The high level processes - eg =
'read a file',=20
      'open a window' </FONT>
      <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The structured pseudo code, =
utilizing the=20
      processes to act on the data base - sequence, selection and =
iteration=20
      </FONT></LI></UL></LI></UL></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><B>Finally</B> we are now in a =
position for=20
SQL and the languages to begin to 'strut their stuff' =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Ripose technique and Caspar almost =
guarantee that=20
the three deliverables will be delivered in less than 3 months. The time =
frame=20
depends on the number of people in the enterprise </FONT>
<UL>
  <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Objectives - about 10 days maximum - =
see </FONT><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.ripose.com/Objectives.html"><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>http://www.ripose.com/Objectives.html</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2> for the savings associated with delivering the objectives =
</FONT>
  <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Strategies - about 20 days maximum - =
see </FONT><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.ripose.com/Strategies.html"><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>http://www.ripose.com/Strategies.html</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2> for the savings associated with delivering the knowledge =
base and=20
  strategies </FONT>
  <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Logic - this depends on the number of=20
  tactics/systems chosen together with the number of tables in the =
associated=20
  data bases. The rule of thumb is not more than 10 working days for a =
data base=20
  containing 20 tables </FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I do not see how any other product on =
the market=20
delivers the same benefit as Ripose and Caspar! </FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To build the Ripose enterprise (both the =
dot com and=20
dot org sides) is no longer solely my responsibility. We need adult =
human beings=20
to assist us. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hope this helps clear more of the mist. =
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards =
<BR>____________________________________=20
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Charles Richter <BR>Ripose Pty Limited =
<BR>PO Box 244=20
<BR>Paddington&nbsp; NSW&nbsp; 2021 <BR>Australia </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Voice&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(02) 8900=20
3234 <BR>Mobile&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (04) 2520 3234 =
<BR>Facsimile&nbsp;=20
(02) 9437 9237 </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Web site&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ripose.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.ripose.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Newsletter November 2001=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT><A =
href=3D"http://www.ripose.com/NewsLetters/Issue03/Page1.html"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.ripose.com/NewsLetters/Issue03/Page1.html</FONT></A><=
FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
</FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gerhard wrote: </FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D850141516-12022002><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I agree with you that =
you should=20
  stick to omnis studio after so amny years of experience with it, I did =
not=20
  know that detail.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D850141516-12022002></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D850141516-12022002><FONT color=3D#0000ff>(I look now at Omnis =
studio: I=20
  see that it is possible to connect to Apache , which can connect to=20
  mySQL...)</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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